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He had told Judge Toh: "I recall people handcuffing me I didn't know where I was. Someone told me I was in Police Cantonment Complex.

Defence lawyer Tan Hee Joek had earlier said that his client suffered an alcoholic blackout that day and did not intend to commit the offences.

For voluntarily causing grievous hurt, an offender can be jailed for up to 10 years and fined or caned. This article was first published in The Straits Times.

Permission required for reproduction. Jail, caning for doctor who assaulted girlfriend, causing multiple facial fractures. Shaffiq Alkhatib.

The Straits Times. Jun 22, Read Also. There's very little treatment for PCOS available. I disagree with the above posters who suggest planting mirrors at chin level or bringing up facial hair in some kind of casual conversation.

I think those kind of tactics may sound like they are sparing her feelings, but she will know that you noticed and didn't tell her directly, she will still be embarrassed, and she will be insulted by the manipulation.

Tell her, "Hey, I know this is a really normal thing for women. I notice you have a few hairs on your chin.

Do you know about that? So if she says she's embarrassed about it, she can take care of it. Jeez that does sound like an embarrassing conversation, but I think avoiding it and dumping her or resenting her is far worse.

The women I know who purposely avoid removing their body hair are women who I would never question their motivations or awareness of the hair.

Does that make sense? I think if she was someone who refused these kind of gender roles, that you would know that about her.

And from what I can tell, you probably would not be the best partner for that person. Facial hair is a highly volatile and emotional social standard for women.

I greatly admire the very few women I know who don't remove their facial hair. They don't have PCOS. They do have mustaches and small beards.

These are women who live as social activists and are very vocal and passionate about their beliefs.

Their facial hair is by far the most radical statement they make, and they would not be shy about talking about it with a partner.

So that's a really long-winded way of saying she doesn't sound like someone who actively chooses to have visible facial hair. She will probably be very embarrassed when you tell her, she will probably eventually remove it.

The removal will be something she'll then have to keep up with on a daily basis. I hope this question and the dialogue you started has helped you learn about the high level of standards women have to reach just to live and be considered "acceptable.

Suffering Jesus, just talk to her. It's ok if you can't get past it, that doesn't make you a bad person. We like what we like.

I can't say that it's ok to judge her negatively, or place some kind of moral or psychological or physical pressure on her, so, you know, don't do that.

Far better to get this out in the open now instead of when you have been married for five years. Just bring it up, and deal with it instead of stewing about it in your head.

Be sensitive, but be honest. FWIW I don't think it was the most right for your girlfriend to pressure you about your back hair either and there's probably a reason you're not still with her.

It's not that I think it's terrible to talk to each other about appearance. But I think if your image of what she should look like is trumping your appreciation of what she does look like, to the point that you're posting about it and considering it a deal breaker, then there's something wrong.

I have sympathy that you are operating in a world that doesn't see women with facial hair as one option for them, so to you it feels basic.

But it is prioritizing that view over the person in front of you. You're not like hey, whatever you do is cool but I'd love your face hairfree.

You're like oh my god what is wrong?? Is it PCOS?? Do something. Also, dealing with facial hair is really public. If your back is waxed and grows back or you have laser treatment on it, you can cover up during the off times.

But on her face if it's red or blotchy or she gets ingrown hairs, it's all public. Finally as we get older our bodies do all kinds of fun things. I had a hormonal reaction in pregnancy that didn't go away afterwards and the skin around my eyes is all mottled.

I would never, ever want to be with a partner who could not handle changes in my appearance I would consider it a given that he would trade me in for a younger model one day.

Men do this because it is societally acceptable for a whole whack of economic and social reasons and you are basically saying you are one of them You may start today!

It is the same "just reality" that kicks great saleswomen out of jobs at midlife, etc. If you want to come out of that view you do need to be able to put hairs in perspective.

It's just hair For those wondering how she might miss it if she wears make- up, these chin hairs can be very stealthy, and grow at angles you don't see straight on in the mirror.

I would just mention it with the least amount of fan fare and apology. If I had a small cut or blister or something on my neck, my partner wouldn't hesitate to mention it to me; he'd assume Id want to know so I could choose how to handle it.

If he mentioned a few chin hairs in the same way, Id be a little emvarassed but that would pass quickly and Id be glad he'd made me aware.

That's just my point of view. Is your GF generally meticulous about her appearance? Hair and makeup, fashion conscious clothes? If so, this hair non-removal should be assume to be deliberate -- something you decide to live with, or not.

If she's more casual about her appearance -- ask her to remove it, but be prepared to be dumped if you do! Everyone has body hair. I'm frankly shocked that you've never noticed this in other people you've dated or even just spent time with.

I had one previous boyfriend who asked me to remove some of it which he found displeasing during sex. I did so, because it was a serious relationship and honestly, if this is a thing he finds important enough for sex to ask for, that's fine with me.

Also let's be honest, I also enjoy sex. My current partner has never brought it up. After a reasonable period of time I asked if he had any preferences about it.

He said it didn't matter to him. I know, women really can have it all nowadays, right? In your girlfriend's position, I would probably be waiting for you to bring it up.

At which point I would consider whether I felt like complying with your request or not. If I did not want to pluck my chin hairs despite good reasons supplied by you "I think it's important to keep yourself up for your partner" is not a good reason , I would continue not doing so.

Oh, and fun fact? The guy who didn't have weird hangups about the fact that I'm a human being with body hair? Reader, I'm about to marry him.

I think the safest strategy here is to honestly be curious about her but without judging. Something like, hey can I ask you a super-personal question?

I'm sure you've thought about removing the hairs on your chin? But you'd have to really, really just be interested in what the answer IS, and be able to say, huh, that's interesting.

I'm not even sure it's in the way you ask, you just have to have that kind of relationship where her assumption is you're doing the former and not the latter.

Do you? Maybe she has no real preference and will ask you what you prefer. Maybe her answer will make clear to you that you'd better just drop the subject and decide if it's a deal breaker or not.

You'll have to listen. When we were first dating, my husband's long nostril hairs squicked me out. As we became closer and more sexually involved , I mentioned it.

He trimmed them and has done so ever since. If he considered this to be some terribly draining chore, it's never mentioned it in over 30 years together.

I really feel like telling you you need to get over this, because mammals are weird and they just get weirder as they get older.

Have you got ear hair yet? You probably will. How do you plan on removing that? That's a hella painful area to tweeze, not an easy area to see to shave This is why you see older dudes out in public with ear hair: their barber takes care of it when they see the barber, but between visits, it grows.

Are you planning to be a man who has electrolysis on his ears in middle age for the sake of your partner? You are maybe a decade away from new bodily maintenance issues presenting themselves.

Will you be Minoxidilling it up when you get a thin spot? Plucking those odd non-beard upper cheek hairs? Grooming the non-eyebrow brow hairs?

Anyway, the "couple Also, in re. Early on, my partner was surprised, and quite mortified when he realised he was wrong, to find out: I do not dye my grey.

It's been 2. He's often been bearded and I am nearly never without the lipstick, so they read more as compliments, I think.

Mostly it's just nice if we're clean. Gussying up is for going out. But he has ear hair, and I offered to have a go with tweezers.

At which he winced terribly, so, I used clippers with no guard and mowed it down that way. If you do not have a pile of hang-ups invested in these things, it really isn't that hard to say "Hey, you have hair here, did you know?

But it sounds like the problem is more the pile of hang-ups. That you are not close enough to cheerfully and kindly say "Hey, did you know you have a few hairs on your chin, can you even see them?

Don't worry, it's not, like, a beard! I would do a lot of introspection here, and THEN ask. There is probably something you are doing "wrong" in her eyes -- do you want to hear she's tired of snagging her nails on your cheap acrylic sweaters and you should switch to wool or cotton?

Everybody knows your "Rolex" is fake so throw the silly thing out already? Find a better barber as this one doesn't know how to deal with your boatload of neck hair?

Everybody's got something. Another thing: Think about whether you're likely to make another big appearance ask. To my mind - leaving questions of gender aside - making a big appearance ask about something that is under your partner's control without dramatic life-changes is probably okay in a relationship.

Maybe you find your partner's new hairstyle really off-putting, or you get hair in your teeth during sex, or you are overwhelmed by how hot they are if they grow a beard, etc.

Making a single ask in a good relationship about a modification that your partner can readily make, and being willing to take no for an answer - that seems reasonable.

Making a lot of asks all the time and constantly nit-picking their appearance, or asking for something that is basically "you have a beard and hate shaving, could you be clean-shaven instead even though you hate shaving" or worse So I guess another question for you is - looking into your heart and being honest with yourself, do you feel that this is the ask?

Like, you're not going to start asking her a bunch of other stuff? If this is the ask, then ask politely. If it's actually NBD, just work on learning the mental trick of getting used to it.

That's a good trick to know in the long term, for one thing. For me, I actually did ask a partner to change an appearance thing once and I don't regret it - but it was once , and forever after in that relationship, I was done.

I made one request that was important to me for what I felt were good and sufficient reasons, and that was it.

If this is "it" for you, then go ahead - but be sure that it is. Also a lady with facial hair, and I think for all the wide-ranging answers here, your final paragraph is what matters most.

Are you willing to lose her over this? Yes, it is quite possible she will be angry or upset. Yes, this is a sensitive subject for a lot of women and a bellwether for whether or not you will be nitpicky about her appearance.

So if you're willing to lose her, then fine, it's OK to ask. If you feel like you'd rather have her with the hair than not at all, I would keep my mouth shut.

I'm going to be generous here and take you at your insistence that you really are concerned about her health. You can stop worrying. If the chin hairs were a symptom of a medical problem and that medical problem was bad enough to be concerned about, she would have other symptoms, much more concerning symptoms than a bit of facial hair.

Maybe there are more now because she's between waxing appointments, maybe its just because she's at the prime age for these sorts of changes or maybe she's just growing them out because she's comfortable enough with you to do that now.

They are longer because that is what hair does. I have some chin, neck, cheek, and boob hairs. I pluck them for my own sake and my partner never gives a shit.

He will pluck the ones on my back if he remembers. I poke the odd shoulder hairs, and we generally keep an idea in our head of each other's body hair pattern.

He has never once mentioned the health aspect no PCOS, indeed I have the ovaries and uterus of a healthy textbook example or that I should do something about them or the belly stripe - again normal for women - or my pubes.

He has said he prefers my hair long but still is attracted to the buzzcut-me, and similarly for me and the beard although he looks significantly younger without it which can be more offputting than just aesthetics.

Your position is one that ignores what is normal for women and tries to claim a better access to knowledge about women's bodies than you have.

But chances are she missed a waxing appointment and you just have no idea on her grooming rituals because you haven't even realised they exist.

I would say, "hey u got a chin hair," in the spirit of idle discovery. Nthing MYOB. I think you could probably pass it off as part of your own routine, and anyone concerned about chin hair might benefit from some aspect of it but in this context it is just crazy [post Xmas party] advice that should be ignored.

Still agree that you should not discuss this under any circumstances. Deal with it or don't posted by cotton dress sock at PM on December 18, [ 2 favorites ].

Hair on her chin isn't a problem. I fell off a cliff and split my chin open, and now have long, thick, dark hair that grows out of the scar, despite being light-haired.

The scarred area is delicate, and it's painful to tweeze, so I shave it off when I feel like it, and don't when I don't.

It's a thing many women have. Your sense that she should be concerned with correcting anything you don't physically like about her IS a problem.

The fact that you're dating her doesn't make her body yours. I agree that attraction is important in a relationship, but I also don't think her grooming decisions are really your business One way to go about this social minefield: - Could you maybe start by asking her what HER physical preferences are in you??

Does she want you to work out more? You said that attraction is important in a relationship, so you should want to please her, you should be prepared to make changes, too!

This requires a great deal of tact, because if she's dating you, she probably will feel hurt if you imply that anything is her fault. Maybe start by saying, you look good in [outfit]!

Your hair looks nice when [ ] And I also prefer it when girls have no stray facial hair? Hm this sounds like a challenge in tact LOL - good luck!

Also you should be prepared to make changes with her! The patriarchy is stupid and unfair, but you don't have to be!

If you ask her this, you need to offer an equal and equally entitled trade. I'm very fair, and my hair is fair, and I had one chin hair. However, it was a good 2 inches long before I noticed it.

I hit that area with the IPL on the regular now. I was out with some girlfriends a few weeks ago and ALL of us had a story that was something along the lines of "This weird hair was like a million inches long before I found it.

You've taken a lot of heat about this question, but I'm not sure any of us can command ourselves to be attracted to someone - no matter how much we like and respect that individual.

There are lots of people that we like as friends but don't pursue as partners. As much as we may want to smash oppressive beauty standards, attraction is difficult to command.

If this chin hair business is a real issue for you, then be an honest partner and ask about it. If she says, "Yes, I know about my chin hair, and I'm good with it," then you can make a decision about whether it's a deal breaker.

Let me grab a tweezer," then that's okay too. She may also decide that they don't bother her, but she'll pluck them because they bother you.

The other thing is that you have an assumption that partners stay attractive for each other. That's not always the case. I know plenty of people who got married and immediately stopped doing the extras.

I know other people who consider primping and pampering to be for themselves and if a partner benefits, well fine, but that's not the objective.

I'm in this camp. If you have a problem, then be an adult and have a conversation about it. Don't hint or hope. Personally I think a lot of the answers here are pretty harsh.

For many people, it's not just possible to turn physical attraction to someone one and off at will.

And, like it or not, physical attraction is also important to people in romantic relationships -- especially at just a few months in!

From my own experience, though, when little physical flaws start bugging me in a way they have not before, it's usually a sign that the relationship is on the downturn.

Obviously this issue was not such a dealbreaker early in the relationship or you would never have had a second date.

That this is now bugging you so much says to me that perhaps you should do some thinking about whether fixing this one small issue would really solve all your problems with the relationship.

Otherwise, I think 5 months is soon enough that it's fine to say -- look, it's just not working out, let's go our separate ways.

I'm not sure if this is just an AskMF thing, but there seems to be a great deal of diving down OP's throat about misogyny over this.

Or maybe it's just a guy thing. If my female, 9 years younger partner wanted me to change something about my appearance I would do almost anything within reason.

Of course I am more than happy to do any of those things and if she were to change her mind I would change things like that because they don't really cost me anything nor do they change who I am.

Similarly, she has asked my opinion about her hair and I've expressed my preference and she's gone with that happily. I do remember a previous girlfriend who had slightly mad spiky red hair for red, read purple.

This was her "quirky thing". It was fun, if perhaps a little on the mad side for her age. Occasionally she would ask me what colour she should choose before going for another salon session, and occasionally I would suggest that she tried a different colour for a change.

But it always came back purple. Not really a massive thing I guess. Interestingly, a while after we split up she had it done in a similar style but blonde, and it looked great.

The point is that in a relationship that's working well I believe that both parties should be happy to do these relatively simple things for each other without questioning why the other likes them.

I'd be fine to do anything that didn't require immense pain or make me look daft to the rest of the world. I think OP would like some help with the phrasing of the question rather than a dressing-down about its validity.

It's a relationship, and OP doesn't need a reason to break it off as we're told so often , and so logically it follows that even the weakest reason in the world is at least as good as no reason at all.

More importantly, it reflects the mutual commitment within the relationship. If OP asks and I agree that it should be a straight ask with a side of "I just prefer this, sorry" rather than any kind of fake health concern then the answer should be taken at face value.

The answer might be "sure, I'll get it sorted, I just haven't got around to it". Or it might be "I had no idea", or "it's really hard to do, because of X reason".

Or it might be "stop trying to tell me how to look, I don't think this relationship is important enough for me to be bothered doing something that's your preference and not mine".

Or any number of other responses. He can then take it from there. Not from the resulting hair, but from the position taken by his girlfriend.

My sister and I both have visible facial hair. We inherited inhairited? Sis cares not in the slightest about hers.

I shave and pluck obsessively. The difference: I dated a guy who was bothered by it. He was "worried about my health. I had nightmares for months.

Guess what? Nothing wrong with me. I'm just a mammal. I don't shave my pits. I don't shave my legs. I'll go months without touching my eyebrows.

It's not political, I just don't care. But my face, it's smooth as a baby's butt. If something happens that I can't get a shower for a couple days because Reasons , I'll spend hours at my desk with a mirror and a pair of tweezers, plucking as much as I can get to before my arthritis and peripheral neuropathy take away my ability to do so.

The handful of times I've been forced to leave the house without having shaved ER visits, etc. The kicker?

I was with that guy 20 years ago. And I'm still fucked up about my facial hair. No matter how caring you try to be, no matter how much you want to be a nice guy about this, you have the potential to have a serious and long-lasting effect on her self-esteem and self-worth over something that is absolutely normal.

Something else to consider: When my parents first married, my mother would do her best to get up before my dad, and go to sleep after him, so he'd never see her without makeup on.

She wanted to look her best. These days, she sleeps in, because she wants to BE her best. She's comfortable enough, both with herself and my dad's love, that she doesn't have to look her best at all hours.

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He was taking her on tours of places etc and doing the whole flirty.. Thursday, March 16, PM by Guest. I have been dating my girlfriend for 2 years now.

Before we started dating she had a relationship with one of my friends. She doesnt consider him an ex-boyfriend, he was more of a fling that lasted about a month.

I was well aware of it at the time. My relationship with my girlfriend has been a little rocky as of late. And i have noticed she has been venting to that guy friend thru text.

A month.. Friday, March 10, PM by Guest. I was in a long term relationship that was going nowhere until my girlfriedn let me know we could see other people as long as i was honest about it.

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She didnt want me to break-up or leave her out of my life. She was one of my best friends at the.. Friday, March 10, AM by Guest.

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It sounds from the way you lay this out that what you need to do is bring it up, and risk ending the relationship.

I have dated people who would call something like this to my attention, probably by looking at the area repeatedly and then reaching out and touching it and saying something like, "Oh, that's a hair; I didn't know what that was.

So it was like, "Wait, you don't cut your toenails? To be clear, I think that's absolutely buffoonish behavior, but if that is how you roll, she might as well know.

I do agree with others that from here on out, you shouldn't date people who have big deal-breakers in their appearance, and certainly not for five months with exclusivity.

To me, an issue with the "just point it out" thing is that body hair is a huge source of shame for women in a way that it is not for men.

There's certainly some "men's body hair ew" discourse out there, but nothing like the whole "normal, real woman are naturally hairless, you should work hard to conceal your deviation from the norm, and if you don't you're disgusting" routine that women get.

I say this quite seriously as an AFAB person - there are many entirely normal and average things about my body that I thought were freakish anomalies until well into my thirties.

There are several things about my body where I nearly match the beauty ideal, in fact, but because I did not match porn , I thought I was deficient.

Women, especially but not exclusively straight women, are not only taught to be ashamed of the natural state of their bodies but very often are taught that they and they alone are disgusting, hairy, etc, and that they need to be very careful to cover up their deviation from the norm.

It's also important for men generally to understand how much work goes into the cultural narrative of "men and women naturally look extremely different".

We construct these bodies where women's bodies are smooth, women's hair is long, women wear make-up and do all kinds of things to keep their skin supple and even-toned, women take care of blemishes, women wear clothes that make the body look as small as possible, women wear shoes that make the feet look small, and men leave their skin alone, cut their hair short and pay little attention to it, wear bulky clothes and shoes, do very little hair-removal, etc.

And then we pretend that the natural state of things is that men and women are extremely physically different. It's not natural.

It's constructed, and it results in men who feel that when women do not do every little thing to emphasize how "not man" they are in appearance, then those women must be somehow physical failures.

Think about this: your girl friend is never, ever going to say "you have a tiny physical anomaly, literally the size of a few hairs, and it's an appearance deal-breaker for me".

Your girlfriend will not do this not only because women are socialized differently than men but because we all grow up with the idea that men's bodies are "natural" just as they are and have a sort of "natural" right to exist in their original state.

It is for this reason that you equate "my girlfriend thinks she would break up with a guy with a micropenis - an imaginary guy who she's never met, so really she might change her mind if she really clicked with this theoretical guy with a rare condition" with "I should be able to tell my girlfriend that a couple of chin hairs render her unattractive to me".

Men's bodies are, on average, granted a right to exist that women's are not. Having read Frowner's response-- with which I agree, by the way-- I wanted to add that your decision shouldn't be based on any projection about how she is going to react, or feel.

Certainly not on how she should react. You may feel it wouldn't bother you in her place, and people may say it wouldn't bother them, but that doesn't prove anything about how it's going to affect her.

It is very likely that it will bother her and she will break up with you because of it. If she doesn't, then great, but she really may and you can't control that.

I would have said yeah, tell her, it'll give her a good reason to break up in all likelihood and you didn't want to be with her anyway.

Yeah, when she's young enough that this is still probably one of her formative relationships and you're nearly a decade older?

You can ask her about it, directly. It may not really be as big a deal as others are suggesting. I do care about what my boyfriend thinks of my appearance--his opinion is second only to my own.

We have had discussions about things much more serious than our looks. Also, in general, we are not very sensitive about our appearances, so whether we like or dislike something, we roll with it.

I always wanna know what he's thinking, even if I don't like it, even if I disagree strongly, at least I know. Oh my goodness.

Just tell her. Life is busy and it is hard to see your own chin. Peepsburg at AM on December 18, [ 15 favorites ].

I've had a little bit of facial hair since I went through puberty, and as I've aged it's increased a bit. The medical condition that causes this is called being a human being -- every woman I've ever met has had some amount of facial hair.

I used to tweeze these hairs off but as someone else mentioned upthread, doing so is a constant low level of work that ends up being pretty draining.

Not having the kind off money required for laser or electrolysis, I started shaving. I dread returning to dating because I dread having a boyfriend like you.

I don't want to trust my heart to someone who will make weird judgements about my attractiveness and make assumptions about my health simply because I am a human being.

My advice is for her to dump you. For what it's worth, it's possible that a casual and neutral, "hey, not to be awkward, but did you know you have a couple long hairs on your chin?

The answer could be "shit, thanks, I had no idea, and while we're talking about it, the end of your nose is growing some fuzz. I think there is a large percentage of women who would appreciate the heads up, if done politely.

If she's working on fulfilling her potential to be bearded, then that's cool but maybe she's not the one for you. If you believe that a normal body function is less than the "best" she is required to look "for you", you should break up with her.

Women die from this kind of critical pressure to conform to impossible beauty standards, especially as wielded by men who consider them an entitlement.

Anyway, nobody ever did say a word about my face which I think is because I didn't need "need" to fix anything about it. Serious question: If these chin hairs are visible to you at all times, and if you consider this a flaw that you're finding it tough to get past, then how have you gotten to the point that you've already been dating her for 6 months?

Were you so smitten with her in the beginning that the chin hairs didn't bother you? Because if that's the case then you should consider whether your problem with the chin hairs is the result of waning interest in her, and not the cause.

If that's so, then bringing it up with her will only hurt her and ultimately not help your feelings about her anyway. Just ask her about it.

At five months it isn't unreasonable to state minor, achievable aesthetic preferences. If you were a woman and you told your boyfriend of 5 months you preferred the clean shaven look no one here would be flipping out.

In no way should you expect she feels obligated to take your preference into mind when she grooms, but it isn't "controlling her appearance" by mentioning it.

As for how to do it- make it low key. While watching a movie look closely at her and say "Hmm, you seem to have a chin hair. Want me to pluck it?

I promise. Thanks for taking the time to answer and give me your opinions. There have been many great answers that have made me think about myself and the relationship.

I probably haven't worded things too well in certain areas which may have caused some of the more negative responses which, again, makes me think I'd probably suck at bringing this up with her.

I should point a few things out. She can expect the same of me, and if there was something changeable about my appearance, such as trimming body hair, that she would rather I do, I would want her to tell me.

I've been in such relationships, so it can work both ways. Don't misunderstand me though, I am not saying men trimming body hair is anywhere near as sensitive an issue as women with facial hair.

When we first met there were a couple that I didn't think much of, but there are many more now and they have gotten longer which has led me to think it may be a health issue - I'm not just looking for excuses with that.

I didn't realise that so many women do have hair on their face and have no health conditions, so thanks to those who have pointed it out.

I understand that I may come off as an ass in some of this, and maybe I am. Unfortunately I do live in a world where too much pressure is put on people to look good, which does suck.

That you don't think it's misogyny to expect a woman to police her body to please her man does not mean that it isn't. That is quite a different thing than acknowledging that sexual attraction is part of a relationship and quite a different thing than both women and men having preferences in a partner.

What is the result of structural misogyny is not that you find chin hairs off-putting. The result of misogyny is your framing this as disappointment that she is not prioritizing her appearance to you by letting the chin hairs grow.

Sounds to me like you have not got the right mindset to have this conversation, yet. If something bothers you, bring it up.

But not as a "why wouldn't you look your best for me" framing which is a put down and unhelpful, but something that acknowledges that you have the issue and are asking for a favor, which is "I am kinda obsessed with the hairs on your chin, would you be willing to pluck them?

I think the "just bring it up, short sweet and casual, and it'll be no big deal" approach would only work in relationships that are a lot more respectful and equal than yours is coming across.

Women are mammals, we're covered in hair. Most of us do a lot to remove it but expecting a mammal to present as hairless every day is pretty strict.

Bluntly, I don't think you can manage to ask this of her without telegraphing the entitlement, resentment, misogyny, and ignorance that comes across in your post.

I don't get your update at all-- if your concern is her health and not her sexiness, why is the question all about her looks?

If you can throw the attitude that your girlfriend "owes" you a level of physical attractiveness--to be determined solely by you--in the garbage, that might help you get over this, or get to a place where bringing this up isn't going to be so loaded.

I don't think the 6. OP I would urge you to consider which 6. This is not to say that those relationships can't work out, but in my own personal experience including friends' relationships, and others I've been in a position to observe , those are some key life-learning and self-actualizing years, and that difference in experience seems to lead to serious power disparities.

I would be really, really wary of this, because when someone doesn't have the experience or the self-actualization or the confidence to either stand up for themselves or assert healthy boundaries, by definition you have no way to know that that's what's happening until it blows up in your face.

Unless other behavior sets off your "hey this might not be ok" alarm and you get out real quick, as I was fortunate enough to do. I don't think that you having a preference for women with no facial hair is a problem in and of itself, but it is problematic that you assume that a it's easy for her to meet your preference and b that her not doing so means she's not "trying her best".

If she's not managing her chin hair And I say this as a woman who routinely plucks and waxes and all that jazz.

When I've been in a relationship, it's something I partly did for my partners, but paradoxically the level of labour involved is something that men in my life have treated me like garbage over.

Like, how dare I make space for grooming rituals that keep you attracted to me? Especially if a woman can't meet that beauty standard consistently despite effort which might be true of your girlfriend if she's particularly hairy , they open up the possibility of being derided by men close to them for trying so hard but not being hot enough, which seems a lot funnier to men than simply not trying at all.

It's not just jerks who do this - it's men who want to stick it to women they claim to care about. Maybe she just wants to avoid going down that rabbit hole?

Answer the question if you have suggestions. Try to be helpful with realistic advice, and "you may not have considered X" is fine, but this space is not for debate and discussion.

As a human being and therefore a mammal, I have facial hair on my upper lip and chin. Dealing with it is, as someone above said, a constant source of low level stress.

I tweeze regularly but the chin hair in particular is difficult because it's hard to see to tweeze, if that makes sense I have to like, scrunch in my chin to access it but then it's hard to see.

The upper lip hair is tough because I can see it at the corners of my upper lip but it's hard to get closer to the middle of my upper lip.

I don't want to shave because I'm worried that will make the situation worse - if I miss a day tweezing, I might have five hairs that go rogue but if I miss a day shaving, I worry I will actually look like a dude.

And I tried laser hair removal on my upper lip and it grew back. As a result of having constant upper lip hair, I never wear lip color because even though I think I'd like how it looks, I worry about drawing attention to my hairy upper lip.

I haven't had my face waxed in months and I feel worse about my appearance as a result. When you want to talk to your girlfriend about her facial hair, that's what you're signing her up for.

It's not just like shaving your face every other day or getting your hair cut every six weeks. And mind you, my husband doesn't seem to care whether I wax or not.

That's all me projecting my own insecurities onto my face. So yeah, if I was your cool girlfriend, I'd probably rather dump you than deal with that nonsense.

If I could dump the part of my brain that makes me care about my facial hair, I totally would. Also, since you say you didn't know women naturally have facial hair, you might not know that if she gets it waxed, it has to be a certain length to do so, so you periodically will see it longer.

Maybe she's between appointments? OP, if the worst happens and she does break up with you over it, you will be That Guy in song and story for as long as she is in the bad-boyfriend-storytelling phase of her life.

In case all the cogent arguments about patriarchy, misogyny and sexist expectations haven't convinced you and reading your update I can see you still don't quite get the level of inequity in this area, between expectations for men and for women , at least consider what queenofbythynia says above.

Because from the way you've carefully presented this question, it implies you really, really want to be perceived as a Nice Guy Who Cares. If you mention this, and she's mortified and you break up, you will be forever known to her circle of friends and possibly beyond as the Insensitive Jerk Who Brought Up the Chin Hairs.

I have an ex who did something really mind bogglingly insensitive and egregious way worse than this and believe me when the bad exes storytelling competitions come up, the story I have about him is the prize winner.

I never fail to tell that story because it's hilarious now and a great example of bad ex behaviour, but dude, you probably don't want to be that guy.

If you don't interpret her physical maturity and hormone levels as potential indicators of her respect and affection for you, it's no deal at all.

It's not that it's good for a guy her own age to make the same comments, it's just that it's easier for her to wonder if maybe you're right, if you're older.

You don't seem like someone who thinks of himself as using his greater age to pressure and bully, but that is the thing that's a pain in the ass about dating a younger person, is you are obligated to wonder about that every now and then.

That willingness, and being the kind of person who thinks of it as a possible issue in the first place, are the factors that make dating younger not a problem.

I had a big crush on a guy for a while. Then we started dating and he made me feel badly about my body hair. Guess what I remember about him.

On the plus side, he made my husband seem that much more amazing. Maybe the hostility in some of the other answers here comes from the the wording of the question rather than the content?

The standard AskMeFi relationship advice is talk to your partner. Still applies. She might not know about the facial hair; everyone has blind spots.

And of the people in her life, you may be the only one willing to have that awful conversation. The long-term alternative is that you break up with her and never reveal to her why.

To me, that's a. Appearance does matter, especially hygiene. Which, culturally, is where this falls.

If you've noticed the hair, then other people in her life have too. Sorry, Coolcatjc, moderator here -- taking a detour into the larger quasi-philosophical question of "what is misogyny" or related big-picture questions is really not going to work here.

AskMetafilter questions need to be focused on practical answerable specific things, like "what should I do", so they don't turn into free-ranging discussions.

At this point, you've asked your question, now just let folks answer and you can mark as "best" the ones that seem most useful to you.

It's typical for women to grow more of these visible and dark hairs on their chins and necks and upper lips as they age--and I mean starting in their 30ss.

So keep in mind that even if you wind up moving on and start dating a different woman who appears to have no significant facial hair, there's an extremely good chance that she will eventually.

I think she doesn't know and doesn't want to have visible chin hair. Since it bothers you, you should tell her.

Do not cage your conversation as concern about "her health. As dozens of women have told you in this thread, all people have facial hair.

She sounds like she has very normal facial hair and far, far less hair than someone with PCOS would have. And if she did have PCOS, the idea that not "treating" it is some kind of moral failing on her part is insulting.

There's very little treatment for PCOS available. I disagree with the above posters who suggest planting mirrors at chin level or bringing up facial hair in some kind of casual conversation.

I think those kind of tactics may sound like they are sparing her feelings, but she will know that you noticed and didn't tell her directly, she will still be embarrassed, and she will be insulted by the manipulation.

Tell her, "Hey, I know this is a really normal thing for women. I notice you have a few hairs on your chin. Do you know about that?

So if she says she's embarrassed about it, she can take care of it. Jeez that does sound like an embarrassing conversation, but I think avoiding it and dumping her or resenting her is far worse.

The women I know who purposely avoid removing their body hair are women who I would never question their motivations or awareness of the hair.

Does that make sense? I think if she was someone who refused these kind of gender roles, that you would know that about her.

And from what I can tell, you probably would not be the best partner for that person. Facial hair is a highly volatile and emotional social standard for women.

I greatly admire the very few women I know who don't remove their facial hair. They don't have PCOS.

They do have mustaches and small beards. These are women who live as social activists and are very vocal and passionate about their beliefs.

Their facial hair is by far the most radical statement they make, and they would not be shy about talking about it with a partner. So that's a really long-winded way of saying she doesn't sound like someone who actively chooses to have visible facial hair.

She will probably be very embarrassed when you tell her, she will probably eventually remove it. The removal will be something she'll then have to keep up with on a daily basis.

I hope this question and the dialogue you started has helped you learn about the high level of standards women have to reach just to live and be considered "acceptable.

Suffering Jesus, just talk to her. It's ok if you can't get past it, that doesn't make you a bad person. We like what we like. I can't say that it's ok to judge her negatively, or place some kind of moral or psychological or physical pressure on her, so, you know, don't do that.

Far better to get this out in the open now instead of when you have been married for five years. Just bring it up, and deal with it instead of stewing about it in your head.

Be sensitive, but be honest. FWIW I don't think it was the most right for your girlfriend to pressure you about your back hair either and there's probably a reason you're not still with her.

It's not that I think it's terrible to talk to each other about appearance. But I think if your image of what she should look like is trumping your appreciation of what she does look like, to the point that you're posting about it and considering it a deal breaker, then there's something wrong.

I have sympathy that you are operating in a world that doesn't see women with facial hair as one option for them, so to you it feels basic.

But it is prioritizing that view over the person in front of you. You're not like hey, whatever you do is cool but I'd love your face hairfree.

You're like oh my god what is wrong?? Is it PCOS?? Do something. Also, dealing with facial hair is really public. If your back is waxed and grows back or you have laser treatment on it, you can cover up during the off times.

But on her face if it's red or blotchy or she gets ingrown hairs, it's all public. Finally as we get older our bodies do all kinds of fun things.

I had a hormonal reaction in pregnancy that didn't go away afterwards and the skin around my eyes is all mottled. I would never, ever want to be with a partner who could not handle changes in my appearance I would consider it a given that he would trade me in for a younger model one day.

Men do this because it is societally acceptable for a whole whack of economic and social reasons and you are basically saying you are one of them You may start today!

It is the same "just reality" that kicks great saleswomen out of jobs at midlife, etc. If you want to come out of that view you do need to be able to put hairs in perspective.

It's just hair For those wondering how she might miss it if she wears make- up, these chin hairs can be very stealthy, and grow at angles you don't see straight on in the mirror.

I would just mention it with the least amount of fan fare and apology. If I had a small cut or blister or something on my neck, my partner wouldn't hesitate to mention it to me; he'd assume Id want to know so I could choose how to handle it.

If he mentioned a few chin hairs in the same way, Id be a little emvarassed but that would pass quickly and Id be glad he'd made me aware. That's just my point of view.

Is your GF generally meticulous about her appearance? Hair and makeup, fashion conscious clothes? If so, this hair non-removal should be assume to be deliberate -- something you decide to live with, or not.

If she's more casual about her appearance -- ask her to remove it, but be prepared to be dumped if you do! Everyone has body hair.

I'm frankly shocked that you've never noticed this in other people you've dated or even just spent time with. I had one previous boyfriend who asked me to remove some of it which he found displeasing during sex.

I did so, because it was a serious relationship and honestly, if this is a thing he finds important enough for sex to ask for, that's fine with me.

Also let's be honest, I also enjoy sex. My current partner has never brought it up. After a reasonable period of time I asked if he had any preferences about it.

He said it didn't matter to him. I know, women really can have it all nowadays, right? In your girlfriend's position, I would probably be waiting for you to bring it up.

At which point I would consider whether I felt like complying with your request or not. If I did not want to pluck my chin hairs despite good reasons supplied by you "I think it's important to keep yourself up for your partner" is not a good reason , I would continue not doing so.

Oh, and fun fact? The guy who didn't have weird hangups about the fact that I'm a human being with body hair?

Reader, I'm about to marry him. I think the safest strategy here is to honestly be curious about her but without judging.

Something like, hey can I ask you a super-personal question? I'm sure you've thought about removing the hairs on your chin?

But you'd have to really, really just be interested in what the answer IS, and be able to say, huh, that's interesting.

I'm not even sure it's in the way you ask, you just have to have that kind of relationship where her assumption is you're doing the former and not the latter.

Do you? Maybe she has no real preference and will ask you what you prefer. Maybe her answer will make clear to you that you'd better just drop the subject and decide if it's a deal breaker or not.

You'll have to listen. When we were first dating, my husband's long nostril hairs squicked me out. As we became closer and more sexually involved , I mentioned it.

He trimmed them and has done so ever since. If he considered this to be some terribly draining chore, it's never mentioned it in over 30 years together.

I really feel like telling you you need to get over this, because mammals are weird and they just get weirder as they get older.

Have you got ear hair yet? You probably will. How do you plan on removing that? That's a hella painful area to tweeze, not an easy area to see to shave This is why you see older dudes out in public with ear hair: their barber takes care of it when they see the barber, but between visits, it grows.

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